Stefanie :Dustin,
I think you bring up some interesting points. I think so many people have forgotten that religion was meant to be a values system of which to live by, the first governments, the first courts, resolution centers of a society, the first “social services” of the human race if you would. I truly believe that so many of the worlds beautiful and mysterious religions have been perverted by time, some by well meaning but wrong scholars, and other by simple greed. These systems of belief were never really intended to explain everything, they were meant to explain the unexplainable for that particular group of people, why did the sun rise every day, what made the neighbors crops grow so well etc. I do believe that human physiology is so complex, our bodily systems even those of our earliest known ancestors are so incredibily unbelievable that there must have been some kind of divine/extra terrestrial/universal involvement. I think the point where science and religion have the parting of the ways is that science is willing to accept only tangible outcomes, measurable outcomes, whereas religious folk can believe in a creative force without such measurable data. Perhaps the answers lies somewhere in the middle, science must come to accept that it cannot explain everything in the universe try as it might, and religion must accept the fact that just because something is scientifically explainable does not rob it of it’s religious or spiritual values. Just because we know why and how it rains doesn’t not make it any less beautiful to watch, when we can measure and predict the tides of the ocean, it does not affect that overwhelming feeling of freedom we feel when we stand in the surf. Science must learn that it cannot stand apart from spirit forever, and religion must realize that eventually its language and syntax will be changed as we discover more and more of our world.
the understanding of religion increases and the understanding of science increases.
scientists used to say X many particulates in the air would put us into a nuclear winter. when Mt St. Helen went off it sent 10 times that amount of particulates into the air. scientists were wrong.
Dustin : One teacher even responded with something like “Some animals were evil and had reproduced with each other and had ‘freak animals’, and Noah didn’t take them on the boat. That’s why we see fossils of Dinos today”…Oh please…
theologists were wrong.
just because theologists interpret the bible wrong or scientists make wrong calculations and predictions doesn’t mean that all of science is wrong or all interpretations of the Bible are wrong.
neither dis proves or proves the other to say one is right and one is wrong.
they are both right but get interpreted wrong.
user error.
It’s understandable that she would be offended by the sticker (not sure what it’s supposed to mean exactly … dinosaurs hate Jesus? is it supposed to have the same message as the Darwin fish?) but she could have politely asked the car owner to move it instead of writing a nasty letter.
It means Dinos trump bullshit, carbon dating trumps fantasy and everyone needs to get over the fact that this rock we live on is millions of years older than what christians want to admit to.
Fact over Fantasy, the truth hurts
wow i cant believe this is even an argument… look at your housecat, your dog, your rat, your child… This is NOT how god made any of them in the beginning… we bred the dogs to have specific characteristics that suit our wants, this is called forced evolution.. we take two separate genomes and bring them together to create a new on with its own special characteristics… weve done this with cows, chickens, pretty much any domesticated animal.. however this also occurs naturally quite often in nature… in fact ALL the time.. dont believe me? Look into reindeer and caribou…Same with humans… When two parents have a child, and that child is not an exact 100% clone of one or the other of the parents (which is the case 100% of the time) then it is a new genome structure… do this for about 500 years and the newest generation wouldnt match the original generations genes, a dna test would register at 0%-5% at most…making that generation a completely independent generation from the originals… which is the literal definition of evolution… and we can witness it, measure it, and reproduce the results, so it is by definition…a fact. And humans are not descended from monkeys, were descended from apes… monkeys are part of the “prosimian” line… The actual missing link no longer roams the planet before you go that route… but alligators and crocodiles walk the earth together…crocs are descendants of gators, but theyre both still here… so that “why are there apes when there are still humans” arguement is moot either way.
now, i think Mista might be getting a little too passionate and maybe starting to hurt his own cause… but either way what he is saying is fact…provable fact…I think the word your all missing is hypothesis… meaning you have enough relevant data to formulate a theory, but no evidence or proof to back it up…a Theory is a stated fact that is backed by resource information and either imperical or physical evidence… now what your actually missing is logic… and before we get into a logic debate, let me define for you..
Logic is a predetermined answer based on assimilated data that is already available… meaning the information is already there, meaning it can in no way shape or form by definition be a fallacy. A fallacy is something that is implied without reasonable data to back up its existence, such as the tooth fairy or santa clause, who would be considered fallacies. Making an idea or hypothesis from nonexistent data is called an “assumption”. As in, theres not one thing you can prove for sure, 100% without a doubt from the bible, theres no imperical or physical data to back it up, therefore any revelation you derive from it, is by definition, an assumption. Whereas if you pick up a science book, you can infer that everything in there can be reproduced, measured, witnessed, and is by definition, a fact.
but proving evolution DOES disprove the bible in a way… because if one part of the bible is wrong, whats to say the rest isnt too?… Who are you as a human to pick and chose what parts of the bible are right or wrong? Its either the book of god and gods will, and its 100% correct, or there are parts that are wrong and nothing in it can be 100% trusted as truth… and if thats the case, if one thing is wrong, what if there is more?.. what if you follow the wrong things, and negate the whole point of following him in the first place since your going to hell anyways for defying gods word?..and since creationism has just been explained away in paragraph..one of the most prominent parts being that god created life just the way it is today… but if a housecat and caribou evolved new traits naturally within a couple hundred years for us to monitor (and they did), then creationism must be wrong…theres no other way it can go.. theres no argument in the world that can dispute proof you can see and touch. But real or not, this is who your following..
taken right out of the pages of your bibles…all these horrible things that you might have just skimmed over instead of reading…in truth, your following a narcissistic megalomaniac with abandonment issues inciting the need for constant love, as well as bipolar schizophrenia that causes him to lash out with murderous aggressiveness at those he (supposedly) loves the most. Now i know its silly, and i know im probably not as morally sound as a christian or god, but i have an aversion to child murder and virginal rape that prevents me from allying myself with this “loving” god… id rather not follow a psychopath like that even if he WAS real >.>
so how much proof do you need?… I hear a lot of christians crying for proof of no god… but i dont see them providing any to prove there is… theres a 100 explanations and facts to our side, just on this page alone, and you still ask for more “proof”… when your side has presented nothing even close to proof, yet you demand more from us without giving anything back. Maybe a kind and educated christian would be gracious enough to enlighten us with some real provable evidence that cant be shot down by the simplest of scientific fact.. once again fact being something you can witness measure and reproduce..And when we’re done, lets put them side by side and see who has more factual and conceivable information at the end to draw the most stable hypothesis on…and remember, no fallacies… No “god did it so we cant know”, or “Its just gods will” … or “He moved his hand and the mountains were created”… I want to know what about him moving his hand made the mountains move and what he created them with. So if you can give a response that doesnt sound like it came out of a disney movie with magical flying things and unexplainable magic, that would be fantastic… I mean its only fair, we give you indisputable facts that can be measured and proven, I only expect the same in return, if i want stories about magic and flying things, ill go watch Alladin. but the funniest part is how christians can keep a straight face trying to scientifically prove religion while preaching about invisible beings that control your destiny and preaching morality from a loving god who sends people to eternal torment at the hands of a being he himself created… I wonder if all those children he killed in the old testament went to hell or heaven…because he sure as hell didnt love them enough to keep them from being ripped from their mothers wombs and stomped on >.> my suggestion is you pick up a book that doesnt start with the word god or christian or holy. You might learn there are more than just a couple thousand pages of information in the world.
scenario 1.
If God exists, then he is transcendent (i.e., outside space and time).
If God exists, he is omnipresent.
To be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space.
To be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space.
Hence it is impossible for a transcendent being to be omnipresence.
Therefore it is impossible for God to exist.
scenario 2
Either God can create a stone that he cannot lift, or he cannot create a stone that he cannot lift.
If God can create a stone that he cannot lift, then he is not omnipotent.
If God cannot create a stone that he cannot lift, then he is not omnipotent.
Therefore god is not omnipotent.
Therefore he is not a god.
Unfortunately, we are not dealing with logic, reason or rationality.
A theist I knew who had studied elementary logic pointed out this:
God transcends logic.
God therefore CAN exist everywhere and nowhere.
God therefore CAN create an indestructable object and then destroy it.
I conclude that there is no point attempting to reason with these sort of people.
I now try to get a debate to a point where they are forced to admint that their beliefs are not logically, reasonably or rationally supportable. I figure it’s the nearest to successfully convincing them of the fallacy of their belief you can get
Atheists have killed approximately 80 million people over the last 100 years.
Soviets (Lenin,Stalin) – 20 million
Chinese (Mao) – 60 million
This comes no where close to the numbers of dead due to Christianity (or Islam, for that matter), but it is incorrect to say that Atheists have killed no one, ever. There have actually been more, but I do not know for certain that they were actual atheists, so have not included them in the numbers (Pol Pot; Burmese Junta; Hitler [Jewish heritage, believed in mysticism]; Castro; numerous genocides in Africa)
Buuuuuuuuddy, buddy, buddy…
No one says, “that Christian murdered the liquor store clerk because of his religion..”. Do not make false correlations.
Stalin and Lenin did not kill in the name of a god that does not exist, neither did Mao. These people killed for 100% political reasons.
Do you think Geroge Tiller’s murderer did it for political reasons? No, he did it completely and utterly because of his religion.
I’ve never heard of someone killing in the name of atheism. Why? Because atheism isn’t ANYTHING. It’s the lack of something.
No one ever said atheists don’t kill/murder, because they certainly do, but they don’t kill in the name of no god, whereas religious folk frequently kill in the name of their god. They do it because they genuinely think they god wants them to kill.
Compare this to the cursades which had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with religion.
When an atheist attacks religion for bringing no good to man kind, there’s an obvious reason for this.
GrowUp : To the Atheists – not all Christians hate you. 85% of the country is Christian, and you hate all of us because of the 10% that are morons. I don’t hate you, I don’t hate gays, and I don’t hate people that get abortions. Please don’t hate me, and the others like me, simply because you have had a bad experience with some backwoods, Bible-thumping hillbilly.
I don’t recall ever saying I hate christians or even muslims.. I do however hate murderers and I hate religions that promote such actions or ways of thinking.
“Stalin and Lenin did not kill in the name of a god that does not exist, neither did Mao. These people killed for 100% political reasons.”
In order to get rid of the rabble-rousers (a.k.a. people that might convince the populace that the Communists were wrong), Stalin and Lenin had to rid the country of the Religious leaders. This was done to Christians, Muslims and Jews. This is the reason that Jews had to hide in Siberia for 60 years and true Islam is only recently starting to make a strong comeback in the predominately Muslim regions (Caucasus Mountains, Central Asia – Turkmenistan/ Afghanistan region).
The Chinese are still killing people to this day for following a certain religion. Granted, they are oddly selective in who they persecute (persecuting the Buddhists in Tibet but not the Muslims in Qinghai, for example), but it is still done.
“but they don’t kill in the name of no god, whereas religious folk frequently kill in the name of their god”
They may not kill in the name of no god, but they most certainly have killed others for their professed believe in a god (see above for a few great examples). And no, i am not referring to people that have been killed because they believe in a different religion, but the those who have died because they followed ANY religion.
“I don’t recall ever saying I hate christians or even muslims.. I do however hate murderers and I hate religions that promote such actions or ways of thinking.”
I have never murdered a soul, I do not advocate murdering anyone (except in extreme cases of self defense), and i am not my religion or my religion’s history.
Over all, this whole argument is moot. Some people will always be gullible enough to believe anything that someone in a perceived position of authority tells them, which means that religion will never fully go away. Most people will always think that they are right and the everyone else is wrong, which means that this argument will never end. So we might as well all just get over others not believing in what we believe in and get on with our lives. If everyone would just leave everyone else the hell alone and worry about our own lives instead, this would be a much, much better world.
Does anyone else not care what excuses people use to kill others en masse?! It’s ultimately all about power and getting more of it, so no matter if someone kills in the name of Christ or in the name of anti-religion or politics it’s still irrational and wrong, and it says nothing about the peaceful people that fall under the same banner. If you are a religious person then either these killings were commanded by God and were fully justified or they were the results of human failings. If you are an atheist then either these killings were reasonable or they were they were the results of human failings. As I can tell, no one here has defended the killings mentioned so I think that we can all agree that they were the results of some very bad, power-hungry people. To say that some way of thinking somehow took control of their minds and made them murder hundreds of thousands of people is like saying that Marilyn Manson was the direct cause of the Columbine shooting. If someone is going to kill that many people, they will find an excuse. These arguments seem like just the same lame arguments stating that violent video games or music turn kids into killers, they make no sense and if you follow them to their logical conclusion ultimately make no difference. Did anyone else see the episode of South Park where Cartman freezes himself for thousands of years and awakens to a world at war over which brand of atheism is the best? It may just be a silly cartoon, but it provides an interesting illustration for the point that it’s human nature to kill each other and scramble for power. Whatever the justification we create is, is merely incidental.
Alright Michael M, I’ll bite, but only because I believe you are utterly wrong here.
I would argue that there is a distinct difference between an individual’s decision to commit a crime such as murder, and the herd mentality that allows followers of religions to justify (to themselves) killing en masse.
Be it infidels, heathens, kaffirs, pagans, etc.
Once they are labeled as such then they are dehumanized just enough for the lord to smite them through the hands of his followers without losing any sleep.
There is also a difference between the political/religious leaders that order the killings, and their “footsoldiers” that actually do the dirty work.
The leaders may be the ones with agendas but their subordinates seldom reap any rewards.
You claim that it is unreasonable to assume that there is some “way of thinking that somehow took control of their minds and made them murder people.”
Actually you will find that religious indoctrination does EXACTLY that.
If you are raised under heavy indoctrination (of any faith) then you will not pick holes in what you are told.
You will never consider weakening the integrity of what you believe to be the ultimate truth.
You will show total devotion outwardly out of fear of being ostracised or you will strive to be totally devoted inwardly out of fear of eternal damnation.
You seem to be more moderate than the average religious nut so much of this talk of indoctrination most likely does not apply to you.
But there are many parts of the world (today and throughout history) where simple people do not have the luxury of choice or personal freedom.
If you want to talk about human failing then I would state that the greatest example of that is the prevalence and power of religion in modern times, not a few cherry picked examples of genocide.
Well, first off I’m not stating that systems of belief cannot be used to control people. Obviously they can. My point is that it doesn’t matter what the system is, anybody can either create a belief system or warp an existing one to enable them to manipulate others. I think that religion is humanity’s oldest way and most well-suited of doing that, but ultimately since there is no deity out there actually pulling the strings that I am aware of (I am actually a functional atheist not a religious moderate) whatever is done, is done by humanity and it’s creations. The system of knowledge is nothing more than a tool.
I’m not sure I’m ready to accept that indoctrination can completely account for the personal responsibility of the foot soldiers who carried out the orders of their insane leaders though. There must have been a moment in each of those soldiers’ lives (save for those who were psychopaths) where they had to make a conscious decision to ignore their better judgment and kill the innocent. It may not be an easy choice, and given the same circumstances you or I may have done the same things, but I don’t think that provides an adequate reason to carry out such heinous acts. Obviously, my inability to accept something does not affect reality, and maybe you disagree with me, but all I would ask for is some evidence that I am wrong and that indoctrination turns people into complete robots incapable of making a rational (albeit difficult) decision. The herd mentality is strong but it doesn’t make anyone do anything, it just provides a strong incentive to.
Mainly, I just think that it is a logical jump to say that the system of knowledge itself is what causes or allows atrocities. I think that the ultimate responsibility lies in the leaders that manipulate people and the followers who carry out the actions (to varying degrees, obviously). The atrocities that the religious folks on this site point to may not be good examples of the logical endpoint of atheism, but they do show that irrational supernatural belief is not necessary for indoctrination and mass murder.
I’m a strong Christian and honestly, I think this is hilarious. It’s a joke, don’t take it so literally. If the dinosaur was eating Jesus or something that could be offensive, but the fish is just a symbol of Christianity. A symbol in which has no divine authority or purpose.
so what if your Christian or Atheist, just take it as a good laugh.
I can’t read through all these posts, especially the ones about religion, so pardon me if these points have been raised. The comments I have read seem to be missing the whole point. This note is not meant to foster “thoughtful” discussion about atheism or Christianity. It’s a threat against someone’s personal property and, last time I checked, such threats are illegal and punishable by law in most states. I hope the recipient took the note to the apartment manager and the filed a police report. The great thing about the U.S. is that every citizen has the Constitutionally protected right to believe and follow whatever religion he or she wants. And that includes NOT believing, too. Society should not tolerate or try to justify threats like this. It’s inexcusable and I hope the note writer is punished.
I would bet money that the “offended” idiot doesn’t even know what the sticker means. It’s poking fun at the Christian belief that the earth is only about 5,000 years old. We have scientific evidence that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. So, the dinosaur eating the fish is simply a way of rejecting that ridiculous belief.
And even if this Christian note writer is offended, it is not very Christian of him to threaten others. That kind of hypocrisy is why many people reject organized religion.
Please post a follow up! Did “Tierra Mesa Resident” follow through with his/her dastardly deed? Did the driver of the Toyota in question move out never to return again? Why do I get the feeling the “Tierra Mesa Resident” is a nine year old girl with an orange crayon? Whatever became of the first amendment?
Brilliant sticker indeed. Freedom of speech is a wonderful endowment of the United States of America and for us to be a truly educated society all perspectives must be brought to light.
Well for you to be a truly educated society you should first kick out all the evangelicals from any position of power or politics because they are incapable of keeping church and state seperate.
I went to school for medical assisting. I had a lab teacher who was baptist. We watched a special on the human body that spoke about how the human body evolved and why. She fast forwarded through it and said that anything that supports evolution is a lie. I asked her about the fossil record and how that could be explained. She looked me in the eye and told me in her thick louisana accent “Honey, them bones is fake. Someone made them and planted them there. Its work of the devil.” hahaha
People would rather have faith in something they dont have to think about or prove than have to do any work and learn anything. Its just easier to be ignorant.
Okay, I hate organized religion, I hate Church, and I don’t trust the bible for shit but I am Spiritual and I believe in both God AND Evolution. Doesn’t mean I am right or wrong. I think we as people need to Coexist and stop hating each other for our differences. I find that the world is much more interesting when nobody is the same. Although, if someone is out right disrespecting you then I don’t think that you should tolerate it but don’t be so quick to jump the gun and hate others for being different than you. I feel that everyone is right in their beliefs OR lack there of for themselves and themselves alone. Don’t worry about the person next to you, let them worry about yourselves and don’t let it bother you. I may or may not get hate or agreement or nothing at all for this post… It just makes me very sad to see so much hate in the world. There are always exceptions to any type of person you try to be prejudice toward. There are some really great exceptions out there. We just need to give each other a chance.
Anyway, that whole Large Hadron Collider SCARES THE CRAP OUT OF ME! What if it does work and then we deal with a big black hole or if it doesn’t, then I am very silly to worry about it. What will happen!? I’d rather NOT know. @_@
When I said, “let them worry about yourselves and don’t let it bother you.” I actually meant, “let them worry about themselves and don’t let it bother you.”
Also, I may be spiritual but I still really like that bumper magnet. XD It’s hilarious!
The LHC does work and is working right now as you and I type our posts.
Don’t be a fool.
I’d have to argue that the concept of God and the fact of evolution are incompatible for one simple reason. First of all, you use the proper-noun form of God, implying belief in the abrahamic god. This god cannot exist in an evolving universe as any more than a delusion of man, and is by far the least compatible with evolution. Quite frankly, any god of any definition still becomes supernatural, and the supernatural is also itself incompatible with evolution and the natural.
For this reason alone, that is the incompatibility of supernatural and natural, you cannot rationally believe in both.
awesome, dont you just love it when these stupid people show just how stupid they are lol. i say you bleach a pic picture of it onto her front lawn lmao.
keep up the hard work pissing off creationist people, we want them to get angry.
I love how she calls it, “her complex.” Is she the owner of said complex? Because if she is, she probably needs to put a clause in the lease in the future. And if she isn’t, she needs therapy for her control issues.
What nerve some people have.
They need to get over themselves and accept that not everyone has the same views that they have.
Tsk tsk. Some people (i.e. Ms. Tierra Mesa here) are absolutely pathetic.
Sometimes I am ashamed to be a Christian – MY Saviour does not condone anonymous violence against skeptics, but urges me forgive them if they insult my feelings, and to pray for them.
Interesting as the discussion on the divine in this context may be… Judging by the style in which note was written and left, I suppose you have to do with a person with psychiatrical sort of problems, not an intolerant individual.
the understanding of religion increases and the understanding of science increases.
scientists used to say X many particulates in the air would put us into a nuclear winter. when Mt St. Helen went off it sent 10 times that amount of particulates into the air. scientists were wrong.
theologists were wrong.
just because theologists interpret the bible wrong or scientists make wrong calculations and predictions doesn’t mean that all of science is wrong or all interpretations of the Bible are wrong.
neither dis proves or proves the other to say one is right and one is wrong.
they are both right but get interpreted wrong.
user error.
i think what your writing is very thoughtful but arent there much better pages to write iton than this
Let me guess, your free stuff site would be a better place?
Is it really her complex?
It’s understandable that she would be offended by the sticker (not sure what it’s supposed to mean exactly … dinosaurs hate Jesus? is it supposed to have the same message as the Darwin fish?) but she could have politely asked the car owner to move it instead of writing a nasty letter.
It means Dinos trump bullshit, carbon dating trumps fantasy and everyone needs to get over the fact that this rock we live on is millions of years older than what christians want to admit to.
Fact over Fantasy, the truth hurts
wow i cant believe this is even an argument… look at your housecat, your dog, your rat, your child… This is NOT how god made any of them in the beginning… we bred the dogs to have specific characteristics that suit our wants, this is called forced evolution.. we take two separate genomes and bring them together to create a new on with its own special characteristics… weve done this with cows, chickens, pretty much any domesticated animal.. however this also occurs naturally quite often in nature… in fact ALL the time.. dont believe me? Look into reindeer and caribou…Same with humans… When two parents have a child, and that child is not an exact 100% clone of one or the other of the parents (which is the case 100% of the time) then it is a new genome structure… do this for about 500 years and the newest generation wouldnt match the original generations genes, a dna test would register at 0%-5% at most…making that generation a completely independent generation from the originals… which is the literal definition of evolution… and we can witness it, measure it, and reproduce the results, so it is by definition…a fact. And humans are not descended from monkeys, were descended from apes… monkeys are part of the “prosimian” line… The actual missing link no longer roams the planet before you go that route… but alligators and crocodiles walk the earth together…crocs are descendants of gators, but theyre both still here… so that “why are there apes when there are still humans” arguement is moot either way.
now, i think Mista might be getting a little too passionate and maybe starting to hurt his own cause… but either way what he is saying is fact…provable fact…I think the word your all missing is hypothesis… meaning you have enough relevant data to formulate a theory, but no evidence or proof to back it up…a Theory is a stated fact that is backed by resource information and either imperical or physical evidence… now what your actually missing is logic… and before we get into a logic debate, let me define for you..
Logic is a predetermined answer based on assimilated data that is already available… meaning the information is already there, meaning it can in no way shape or form by definition be a fallacy. A fallacy is something that is implied without reasonable data to back up its existence, such as the tooth fairy or santa clause, who would be considered fallacies. Making an idea or hypothesis from nonexistent data is called an “assumption”. As in, theres not one thing you can prove for sure, 100% without a doubt from the bible, theres no imperical or physical data to back it up, therefore any revelation you derive from it, is by definition, an assumption. Whereas if you pick up a science book, you can infer that everything in there can be reproduced, measured, witnessed, and is by definition, a fact.
but proving evolution DOES disprove the bible in a way… because if one part of the bible is wrong, whats to say the rest isnt too?… Who are you as a human to pick and chose what parts of the bible are right or wrong? Its either the book of god and gods will, and its 100% correct, or there are parts that are wrong and nothing in it can be 100% trusted as truth… and if thats the case, if one thing is wrong, what if there is more?.. what if you follow the wrong things, and negate the whole point of following him in the first place since your going to hell anyways for defying gods word?..and since creationism has just been explained away in paragraph..one of the most prominent parts being that god created life just the way it is today… but if a housecat and caribou evolved new traits naturally within a couple hundred years for us to monitor (and they did), then creationism must be wrong…theres no other way it can go.. theres no argument in the world that can dispute proof you can see and touch. But real or not, this is who your following..
http://thethinkingatheist.com/bible_atrocities.html
taken right out of the pages of your bibles…all these horrible things that you might have just skimmed over instead of reading…in truth, your following a narcissistic megalomaniac with abandonment issues inciting the need for constant love, as well as bipolar schizophrenia that causes him to lash out with murderous aggressiveness at those he (supposedly) loves the most. Now i know its silly, and i know im probably not as morally sound as a christian or god, but i have an aversion to child murder and virginal rape that prevents me from allying myself with this “loving” god… id rather not follow a psychopath like that even if he WAS real >.>
so how much proof do you need?… I hear a lot of christians crying for proof of no god… but i dont see them providing any to prove there is… theres a 100 explanations and facts to our side, just on this page alone, and you still ask for more “proof”… when your side has presented nothing even close to proof, yet you demand more from us without giving anything back. Maybe a kind and educated christian would be gracious enough to enlighten us with some real provable evidence that cant be shot down by the simplest of scientific fact.. once again fact being something you can witness measure and reproduce..And when we’re done, lets put them side by side and see who has more factual and conceivable information at the end to draw the most stable hypothesis on…and remember, no fallacies… No “god did it so we cant know”, or “Its just gods will” … or “He moved his hand and the mountains were created”… I want to know what about him moving his hand made the mountains move and what he created them with. So if you can give a response that doesnt sound like it came out of a disney movie with magical flying things and unexplainable magic, that would be fantastic… I mean its only fair, we give you indisputable facts that can be measured and proven, I only expect the same in return, if i want stories about magic and flying things, ill go watch Alladin. but the funniest part is how christians can keep a straight face trying to scientifically prove religion while preaching about invisible beings that control your destiny and preaching morality from a loving god who sends people to eternal torment at the hands of a being he himself created… I wonder if all those children he killed in the old testament went to hell or heaven…because he sure as hell didnt love them enough to keep them from being ripped from their mothers wombs and stomped on >.> my suggestion is you pick up a book that doesnt start with the word god or christian or holy. You might learn there are more than just a couple thousand pages of information in the world.
scenario 1.
If God exists, then he is transcendent (i.e., outside space and time).
If God exists, he is omnipresent.
To be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space.
To be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space.
Hence it is impossible for a transcendent being to be omnipresence.
Therefore it is impossible for God to exist.
scenario 2
Either God can create a stone that he cannot lift, or he cannot create a stone that he cannot lift.
If God can create a stone that he cannot lift, then he is not omnipotent.
If God cannot create a stone that he cannot lift, then he is not omnipotent.
Therefore god is not omnipotent.
Therefore he is not a god.
Unfortunately, we are not dealing with logic, reason or rationality.
A theist I knew who had studied elementary logic pointed out this:
God transcends logic.
God therefore CAN exist everywhere and nowhere.
God therefore CAN create an indestructable object and then destroy it.
I conclude that there is no point attempting to reason with these sort of people.
I now try to get a debate to a point where they are forced to admint that their beliefs are not logically, reasonably or rationally supportable. I figure it’s the nearest to successfully convincing them of the fallacy of their belief you can get
“My 2 cents” There, I feel better now.
Why are we assuming that the writer of the note was religiously offended? It’s clearly a child writing it. Maybe the kid just likes fish a lot.
Woosh.
How is that “clearly” a child’s writing? It’s more legible than the writing of half the people I know…a lot of people just have poor penmanship.
Buuuuuuuuddy, buddy, buddy…
No one says, “that Christian murdered the liquor store clerk because of his religion..”. Do not make false correlations.
Stalin and Lenin did not kill in the name of a god that does not exist, neither did Mao. These people killed for 100% political reasons.
Do you think Geroge Tiller’s murderer did it for political reasons? No, he did it completely and utterly because of his religion.
I’ve never heard of someone killing in the name of atheism. Why? Because atheism isn’t ANYTHING. It’s the lack of something.
No one ever said atheists don’t kill/murder, because they certainly do, but they don’t kill in the name of no god, whereas religious folk frequently kill in the name of their god. They do it because they genuinely think they god wants them to kill.
Compare this to the cursades which had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with religion.
When an atheist attacks religion for bringing no good to man kind, there’s an obvious reason for this.
I don’t recall ever saying I hate christians or even muslims.. I do however hate murderers and I hate religions that promote such actions or ways of thinking.
“Stalin and Lenin did not kill in the name of a god that does not exist, neither did Mao. These people killed for 100% political reasons.”
In order to get rid of the rabble-rousers (a.k.a. people that might convince the populace that the Communists were wrong), Stalin and Lenin had to rid the country of the Religious leaders. This was done to Christians, Muslims and Jews. This is the reason that Jews had to hide in Siberia for 60 years and true Islam is only recently starting to make a strong comeback in the predominately Muslim regions (Caucasus Mountains, Central Asia – Turkmenistan/ Afghanistan region).
The Chinese are still killing people to this day for following a certain religion. Granted, they are oddly selective in who they persecute (persecuting the Buddhists in Tibet but not the Muslims in Qinghai, for example), but it is still done.
“but they don’t kill in the name of no god, whereas religious folk frequently kill in the name of their god”
They may not kill in the name of no god, but they most certainly have killed others for their professed believe in a god (see above for a few great examples). And no, i am not referring to people that have been killed because they believe in a different religion, but the those who have died because they followed ANY religion.
“I don’t recall ever saying I hate christians or even muslims.. I do however hate murderers and I hate religions that promote such actions or ways of thinking.”
I have never murdered a soul, I do not advocate murdering anyone (except in extreme cases of self defense), and i am not my religion or my religion’s history.
Over all, this whole argument is moot. Some people will always be gullible enough to believe anything that someone in a perceived position of authority tells them, which means that religion will never fully go away. Most people will always think that they are right and the everyone else is wrong, which means that this argument will never end. So we might as well all just get over others not believing in what we believe in and get on with our lives. If everyone would just leave everyone else the hell alone and worry about our own lives instead, this would be a much, much better world.
Does anyone else not care what excuses people use to kill others en masse?! It’s ultimately all about power and getting more of it, so no matter if someone kills in the name of Christ or in the name of anti-religion or politics it’s still irrational and wrong, and it says nothing about the peaceful people that fall under the same banner. If you are a religious person then either these killings were commanded by God and were fully justified or they were the results of human failings. If you are an atheist then either these killings were reasonable or they were they were the results of human failings. As I can tell, no one here has defended the killings mentioned so I think that we can all agree that they were the results of some very bad, power-hungry people. To say that some way of thinking somehow took control of their minds and made them murder hundreds of thousands of people is like saying that Marilyn Manson was the direct cause of the Columbine shooting. If someone is going to kill that many people, they will find an excuse. These arguments seem like just the same lame arguments stating that violent video games or music turn kids into killers, they make no sense and if you follow them to their logical conclusion ultimately make no difference. Did anyone else see the episode of South Park where Cartman freezes himself for thousands of years and awakens to a world at war over which brand of atheism is the best? It may just be a silly cartoon, but it provides an interesting illustration for the point that it’s human nature to kill each other and scramble for power. Whatever the justification we create is, is merely incidental.
Alright Michael M, I’ll bite, but only because I believe you are utterly wrong here.
I would argue that there is a distinct difference between an individual’s decision to commit a crime such as murder, and the herd mentality that allows followers of religions to justify (to themselves) killing en masse.
Be it infidels, heathens, kaffirs, pagans, etc.
Once they are labeled as such then they are dehumanized just enough for the lord to smite them through the hands of his followers without losing any sleep.
There is also a difference between the political/religious leaders that order the killings, and their “footsoldiers” that actually do the dirty work.
The leaders may be the ones with agendas but their subordinates seldom reap any rewards.
You claim that it is unreasonable to assume that there is some “way of thinking that somehow took control of their minds and made them murder people.”
Actually you will find that religious indoctrination does EXACTLY that.
If you are raised under heavy indoctrination (of any faith) then you will not pick holes in what you are told.
You will never consider weakening the integrity of what you believe to be the ultimate truth.
You will show total devotion outwardly out of fear of being ostracised or you will strive to be totally devoted inwardly out of fear of eternal damnation.
You seem to be more moderate than the average religious nut so much of this talk of indoctrination most likely does not apply to you.
But there are many parts of the world (today and throughout history) where simple people do not have the luxury of choice or personal freedom.
If you want to talk about human failing then I would state that the greatest example of that is the prevalence and power of religion in modern times, not a few cherry picked examples of genocide.
Well, first off I’m not stating that systems of belief cannot be used to control people. Obviously they can. My point is that it doesn’t matter what the system is, anybody can either create a belief system or warp an existing one to enable them to manipulate others. I think that religion is humanity’s oldest way and most well-suited of doing that, but ultimately since there is no deity out there actually pulling the strings that I am aware of (I am actually a functional atheist not a religious moderate) whatever is done, is done by humanity and it’s creations. The system of knowledge is nothing more than a tool.
I’m not sure I’m ready to accept that indoctrination can completely account for the personal responsibility of the foot soldiers who carried out the orders of their insane leaders though. There must have been a moment in each of those soldiers’ lives (save for those who were psychopaths) where they had to make a conscious decision to ignore their better judgment and kill the innocent. It may not be an easy choice, and given the same circumstances you or I may have done the same things, but I don’t think that provides an adequate reason to carry out such heinous acts. Obviously, my inability to accept something does not affect reality, and maybe you disagree with me, but all I would ask for is some evidence that I am wrong and that indoctrination turns people into complete robots incapable of making a rational (albeit difficult) decision. The herd mentality is strong but it doesn’t make anyone do anything, it just provides a strong incentive to.
Mainly, I just think that it is a logical jump to say that the system of knowledge itself is what causes or allows atrocities. I think that the ultimate responsibility lies in the leaders that manipulate people and the followers who carry out the actions (to varying degrees, obviously). The atrocities that the religious folks on this site point to may not be good examples of the logical endpoint of atheism, but they do show that irrational supernatural belief is not necessary for indoctrination and mass murder.
hahaha, I have that same sticker :)
well it is kinda….obscure…
if i waqs chritian i’d be offended too i guess…
I’m a strong Christian and honestly, I think this is hilarious. It’s a joke, don’t take it so literally. If the dinosaur was eating Jesus or something that could be offensive, but the fish is just a symbol of Christianity. A symbol in which has no divine authority or purpose.
so what if your Christian or Atheist, just take it as a good laugh.
Your just saying that…but really
People kill people and just about anything else they want.
She must be insecure with her faith . . . I don’t find it insulting but amusing. Then again — I know my science.
A girl who knows science? She’s a witch! Get her!
have none of you seen this picture online?
it was posted on 4CHAN and everyone found it kinda funny.
this letter never actually happened
Lol I don’t think that most of the people on 4chan are big on religion anyway; no matter how much my pastor enjoys the Japanese girl tentacle rape.
Tough shit, whiner!!! Suck it up, coexist or fade into the sunset with the rest of the fundies.
I can’t read through all these posts, especially the ones about religion, so pardon me if these points have been raised. The comments I have read seem to be missing the whole point. This note is not meant to foster “thoughtful” discussion about atheism or Christianity. It’s a threat against someone’s personal property and, last time I checked, such threats are illegal and punishable by law in most states. I hope the recipient took the note to the apartment manager and the filed a police report. The great thing about the U.S. is that every citizen has the Constitutionally protected right to believe and follow whatever religion he or she wants. And that includes NOT believing, too. Society should not tolerate or try to justify threats like this. It’s inexcusable and I hope the note writer is punished.
I would bet money that the “offended” idiot doesn’t even know what the sticker means. It’s poking fun at the Christian belief that the earth is only about 5,000 years old. We have scientific evidence that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. So, the dinosaur eating the fish is simply a way of rejecting that ridiculous belief.
And even if this Christian note writer is offended, it is not very Christian of him to threaten others. That kind of hypocrisy is why many people reject organized religion.
read my post which is only 5 above yours
“my complex” ???? Does she own the building? And even if she does, she has no right to rip anything off someones car.
The ones who don’t believe in evolution are the ones who need it most.
Brilliant sticker. :)
Please post a follow up! Did “Tierra Mesa Resident” follow through with his/her dastardly deed? Did the driver of the Toyota in question move out never to return again? Why do I get the feeling the “Tierra Mesa Resident” is a nine year old girl with an orange crayon? Whatever became of the first amendment?
Brilliant sticker indeed. Freedom of speech is a wonderful endowment of the United States of America and for us to be a truly educated society all perspectives must be brought to light.
Well for you to be a truly educated society you should first kick out all the evangelicals from any position of power or politics because they are incapable of keeping church and state seperate.
I went to school for medical assisting. I had a lab teacher who was baptist. We watched a special on the human body that spoke about how the human body evolved and why. She fast forwarded through it and said that anything that supports evolution is a lie. I asked her about the fossil record and how that could be explained. She looked me in the eye and told me in her thick louisana accent “Honey, them bones is fake. Someone made them and planted them there. Its work of the devil.” hahaha
People would rather have faith in something they dont have to think about or prove than have to do any work and learn anything. Its just easier to be ignorant.
Okay, I hate organized religion, I hate Church, and I don’t trust the bible for shit but I am Spiritual and I believe in both God AND Evolution. Doesn’t mean I am right or wrong. I think we as people need to Coexist and stop hating each other for our differences. I find that the world is much more interesting when nobody is the same. Although, if someone is out right disrespecting you then I don’t think that you should tolerate it but don’t be so quick to jump the gun and hate others for being different than you. I feel that everyone is right in their beliefs OR lack there of for themselves and themselves alone. Don’t worry about the person next to you, let them worry about yourselves and don’t let it bother you. I may or may not get hate or agreement or nothing at all for this post… It just makes me very sad to see so much hate in the world. There are always exceptions to any type of person you try to be prejudice toward. There are some really great exceptions out there. We just need to give each other a chance.
Anyway, that whole Large Hadron Collider SCARES THE CRAP OUT OF ME! What if it does work and then we deal with a big black hole or if it doesn’t, then I am very silly to worry about it. What will happen!? I’d rather NOT know. @_@
When I said, “let them worry about yourselves and don’t let it bother you.” I actually meant, “let them worry about themselves and don’t let it bother you.”
Also, I may be spiritual but I still really like that bumper magnet. XD It’s hilarious!
The LHC does work and is working right now as you and I type our posts.
Don’t be a fool.
I’d have to argue that the concept of God and the fact of evolution are incompatible for one simple reason. First of all, you use the proper-noun form of God, implying belief in the abrahamic god. This god cannot exist in an evolving universe as any more than a delusion of man, and is by far the least compatible with evolution. Quite frankly, any god of any definition still becomes supernatural, and the supernatural is also itself incompatible with evolution and the natural.
For this reason alone, that is the incompatibility of supernatural and natural, you cannot rationally believe in both.
Typical fundamentalcase freak show. Dont like it, look the other way.
ok…
awesome, dont you just love it when these stupid people show just how stupid they are lol. i say you bleach a pic picture of it onto her front lawn lmao.
keep up the hard work pissing off creationist people, we want them to get angry.
read my blog.
I love how she calls it, “her complex.” Is she the owner of said complex? Because if she is, she probably needs to put a clause in the lease in the future. And if she isn’t, she needs therapy for her control issues.
comment.
What nerve some people have.
They need to get over themselves and accept that not everyone has the same views that they have.
Tsk tsk. Some people (i.e. Ms. Tierra Mesa here) are absolutely pathetic.
Sometimes I am ashamed to be a Christian – MY Saviour does not condone anonymous violence against skeptics, but urges me forgive them if they insult my feelings, and to pray for them.
Interesting as the discussion on the divine in this context may be… Judging by the style in which note was written and left, I suppose you have to do with a person with psychiatrical sort of problems, not an intolerant individual.